Episode 264: Podcast Plebicide

00:00 Podcasting 2.0 for June 19th, 2026 Episode 264! Podcast plebiscite Hello everybody It's raining here in Texas but it's a Friday because you know what that means It is time for Podcasting 2.0 Everything going down in the world of podcasting Is discussed here and then some other things as well It's a board meeting And we are the only board room that will never sign A memorandum of understanding I'm Adam Curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the man who always gives you five nines above time. Say hello to my friend on the other end! The one, the only Mr Dave... Jeff Jones! No memos? Memos require you to write things A memo of underst- a memorandum of understanding is different It requires meetings and writing stuff And flying to Switzerland to sign them

00:58 What I'm you threw me on the Switzerland thing what was oh, I was referring to the Iran Memorandum of understanding yeah. Hey, I know nothing about this Oh, you know what that's beautiful You don't need to know anything you can be like those tourists all over social media I'm so disconnected from anything that even remotely resembles news. Oh, but- I have no idea...I checked out of even trying to keep up with the Iran thing because it was like you know We're gonna sign a peace deal. We're not signing the peace deal, the straits are open no they're closed No the straights are... I'm like I can't do this Whatever! Basically what is the price at the pump? Okay i guess that's okay then we're all right That's all that's all we care about as Americans really

01:46 And it's always just going to have the current president sticker on the pump with a little finger saying I did this. So, it doesn't matter anyway whoever that you guys are you put that sticker on there Exactly Yeah Now as I was saying man love all these tourists who are here for the World Cup You're not on social media so you don't see that It's on YouTube too! It's all over YouTube And once you watch one, then you get into the algo hole. It's so wonderful! People are like... Wow America is great! The yellow school buses they're real! They're real!! I think that was just in TV shows and movies. Oops! Oh hey! Hello! We got a baller boosted. Let's see who boosted the baller? Thank You Dreb Scott 10 thousand sats boom right off the bat at Bala Yeah I've been watching..I'm not a soccer fan

02:42 Really? But I'm also not a fan of... what do you call it? like curling. But I watched that during the Olympics and enjoy it. It's true, curling is especially when they got cute girls on the team again. Yeah but i'm not gonna watch it on like a Tuesday in June you know? So when the World Cup happens soccer's fun because I'm caught up in the hey everybody there's big things happening and

03:18 It's fun to watch along and that kind of thing. I like it too, I watch it. So I've been watching it and the funny thing is we're watching on the Roku Yeah And the only thing we have really access to because they don't pay for streaming stuff Is like Peacock Like Spanish feed the Telemundo. We don't even know who the teams are for a while because I figure out what the logo and the colors mean yeah it's like okay well i hope it stays free now that Fox bought it Oh, they'll charge. They'll take the free part away? Yeah I don't know if they will... They may or they may not but it's interesting you have free peacock! I didn't realize that. You gotta pay for it here. I think it comes with our TV. With our internet. With our home internet

04:15 There's some kind of deal with our internet provider where you get like... It used to be HBO Max. Spanish? Yeah, no I don't know why the Spanish thing is a thing we can't get an English feed of the World Cup for some reason Oh that's too bad see what am i recording it on Sam Sethy probably pays for some kinda $300 a month football god package or something Uber lord package yeah I really like YouTube TV Ever since they added C-Span. That was the gating factor for me to have cable, which we got rid of because C-Span is important for me and you can set it up easily on YouTube TV to just record! You know? You can do endless recordings of stuff. They keep creeping that price up on YouTube TV though... Oh yeah well I understand. A few bucks at a time ya know? I understand it

05:14 You turn around one day and it's 120. It's almost the same, it's basically the same price as cable packages used to be. No! Well... no. Mike? When we canceled cable it was like $120 a month But that came with internet And that was like 12 years ago That was a long time ago but still over 100 dollars Did you get your internet through them as well how do you get your internet now We have-we do it through AT&T Fiber Okay what do you pay and what are you getting We pay $85 a month and it's just internet. What kind of bandwidth? Just internet? No, symmetric gig A gig... I got 5 gigs for 100 a month! I really love that. Symmetric 5 gigs. I don't think we have five gigs No this is.. We got this- I'm sorry. I think we can do 3 gigs through charter but

06:12 I've not done it because i feel like anything above a gig is sort of a marketing scam. Oh totally, we got it because we're rural America so what does the outfit called that does this? They bought They bought Verizon's thing. I forget their name now... Is it Freedom Internet? No, it's not! It's something like that but they got subsidies from the government so you know that's why we have this super broadband because of course

06:50 the most billionaires in Texas live in Fredericksburg, and so we need the subsidy to give us five gigs of internet. It makes nothing but sense." Frontier! That's the one I was thinking about. Yeah that's the one, frontier yeah. I was thinking freedom, I meant frontier here. Same thing. So... The whole week I've been reflecting on uh.. On last board meeting Okay Uh because you were in kind of a well I think you were grieving A little bit. The loss of what? The loss of, well about AI coding and being a software developer and it felt like you were grieving a little bit about it because you said I love this and hate at the same time am I is that incorrect assumption It's interesting that you bring that up because

07:42 Thinking about the last board meeting most of the week as well and We're thinking about me because my butt got all warm so I don't know It's supposed to be your ears not your bus. Oh, I'm sorry. I'll have to talk to my body Yes is your butt burning so nice talking about you Know that I actually did something that rarely ever do and within a couple hours after you posted the show, I went back and listened to the show again. I did too! And I rarely do that myself... That's interesting. That's funny because it just felt like such a- It was such a discombobulated show we forgot to make donations. That has never happened to me in a podcast ever. Ever! I don't know what happened there. That shows how weird it was. I didn't have any end of show ISO. Everything was off so

08:32 OK, I have some conclusions about it. But you want to go first? Well let's review Let's look at the meeting notes of last board meeting No please no AI meet meeting note taker please Isos you can pull last week's iso that was a killer one Yeah yeah i think actually know There's buncha podcast stuff we need to talk about but this... Actually wanna..I'm glad you brought this up Because Justin Jackson had a blog post this week. Oh, I have not seen Justin Jackson's blog post Just- Justin... Uh, Jackson of Transistor also of Podcast Standards Project Notoriety and Fame Yes Infamy Infamy What is it? Is is a sub stack or what is it? Yeah, I don't know what it is. I don't know what he uses but its um

09:36 Oh man, I'm gonna have to find it now. Calm Company? How To Build Something People Want? Am i looking at the right thing here? Do you know what it was called? Justin Jackson's a basketball player evidently. Transistor... Now gotta go find it. Podcasting articles Here it is! JustinJackson.ca Yeah that's right because he's a Canuck Which blog post? I don't even remember what it's called. It's brand new, it should be at the top but... How I would build a new startup if I do it all over again we have Calm Company We have a communication problem here it is not on the homepage Oh yes! Yes we do That was a very good post I saw that actually talked about that in On No Agenda which you never listen to Oh see that's why I don't listen because I would've been tainted

10:34 So he wrote this blog post and the long and short of it is that he's saying that real life, you know, he's got a company that they've had. The Transistor is a company they built remotely sort of like we've always worked remotely together in this disconnected chat based work. They use Slack, you and I use Signal And he said that there was this long simmer, like a long running issue building between him and his co-founder. That was sort of simmering over many months where they had some basic disagreements about some things. He didn't elaborate on it but he said that they finally met up and just had dinner together in real life. It was all

11:34 Resolved all their differences all this disk. Yeah, like 30 minutes in like 30 minutes over dinner No, I take it back It wasn't no agenda was on we get to do this where I discussed it Okay And me and you and I have had these experiences with You know with Godcaster where we hot way We have disagreements and and we've had this experience with other things we've been involved sure you you you and I tend to Things just kind of roll off of us a little bit quicker, but whenever somebody else comes in we tend to flare up a little bit. But the point of his article was real life is better for many reasons this being one of them and there's nothing novel here when he's saying it's just that we know all this

12:29 We know that this is the case because of all kinds of things, body language. The look on a person's face you can tell when you said something if they got if it hurt their feelings You can tell if they're concerned about something you're saying because then you sense oh your miss maybe your misunderstanding There's a lot of things that happen in real life This is not groundbreaking information here breaking But But it's, I'm not really interested. I started thinking about that and not really about the why so much as the how like you know we often go back and forth on GitHub an podcast index dot social mastodon about various standards and tags that people are working on and interested in building refining or whatever And As expected there's disagreements There always is going to be in this kind of work

13:31 And people, including me we get our feelings hurt sometimes. We flame out and do these kinds of things. As part of this... You know me I'm going around the world and come back I promise! He's doing the weave people he is doing the weave! I had this intense dislike of GitHub. I am with you brother but i just don't look at it It's not an option for you but I just don't look at it It's not an option for me, but I don't look at it either. And I can't really put my finger on why until I read two things had to happen back-to-back. I read Justin's blog post and I was thinking about it in my head and then later I was reading

14:24 a book that I had started to read awhile back and had put down in order to read Secular Age, the Charles Taylor books. So I finished Secular Age finally that took...I'm a slow reader so I sort of was reading this new book and I sorta put two-and-two together through this lens of attention focused attention And so this book is about is about the brain and its effect on society specifically, you know. The world we live in now modern society it's called The Master and His Emissary by Ian McGilchrist It's partially a critique of like this guy he's a neurologist fellow at Oxford distinguished career

15:26 But it's partially a critique of the machine model of the brain. You know, and so the brain is split into two hemispheres connected through this mass of connective circuits called the corpus callosum but even if you sever that connective tissue between the hemispheres with very few exceptions the brain and person continues to function just like they always did which is weird So why is it there? If you can literally sever the two hemispheres and there's very little impact that it has, why was it like that to begin with? And why are there two hemispheres anyway? It was noticed early on, very early, that language seems to be predominantly a left hemisphere.

16:20 Activity. Yeah, there's a lot of people writing about this right now and it comes from this guy's book that he He yeah This is this is the root now This book is a more accessible version of his larger academic work called The Matter with Things Which is a two-volume you know 1200 page beast? This is the more accessible version But some people show almost the exact opposite with all their language activity being concentrated in the right hemisphere. So it seems like generally speaking, there aren't very many rules that apply to the brain in the same way that they would apply to something like a machine so even though that's not the main point of the book, that is part of it and that's this kind of idea I was reading through and

17:15 you know, attention this focused attention being primarily like a left hemisphere activity. And let me just say here though... It's also where we get triggered on everything I mean the left brain is a whole bunch of crazy stuff which is social media loves left brain well and I know and I feel like running through that right now. I need to say first of all, please do not read left-right hemisphere language as relating to anything like political or cultural... As we talk about left and right on the politics spectrum. They're not in any way related. That's not a thing

17:56 But, you know and his idea is that left hemisphere dominance is what is the prime mover of cultural impact in the world today. So he has this quote and I wrote it down. He said attention is not just another function alongside other cognitive functions its ontological statuses of something prior to functions and even things The kind of attention we bring to bear on the world changes the nature of the world We attend to. The very nature of the world in which those functions would be carried out and in which those things exist Attention changes what kind of a thing comes into being for us, and that way it changes the world Wow And I would add that you know when he says THE WORLD there

18:55 I think he means, and i'm pretty sure he's meaning the world as we perceive it. As we perceive it of course right which really is the world It's all perception yeah that because that's all we have access to right? We can only see the world through a perception and in a sense you could think of it like um Like, what does Mount Everest do when nobody's there? And the answer is it did nothing. So like the idea that there's this very predominant view that there's like the subjective view of the world and then there's this objective view of the world and that some of us see one... I see the world objectively and you see it subjectively

19:40 But that doesn't really obtain because the idea there, the idea that there are even two views a subjective and an objected isn't a priori view of the world. You're bringing the view that there are two views to bear on the world already so you've already… it's a tautology. So I mean the book, It's in my mind and I'm kind of thinking through all these things as after I read Justin's blog post. And then James posted something on podcasting.social about the transcript tag, and he said if I can find it... There was a discussion back and forth between James and Daniel J Lewis. Yes, I saw some of that yeah

20:35 Yeah, okay. James said my proposal was to suggest that full support of the transcript tag should be suggested to be simply VTT but if you only support VTT both publisher and client then that's full support of the tag and if you do not support VTT you do not support the tag now I really appreciated what he said there because I think that resolved a lot of misunderstandings between what I've been thinking he's been saying over months now. And, I was like man wow this is amazing that Justin posts this and then I have a realization of the thing that I was very unsure about what James was saying. And James even said there if you want to jump on a call and work this out I'm happy to explain it. We probably should have done that.

21:34 Cradler call. Yeah, yeah, the cradle phone bring up the cradle and so then January Lewis if you scroll down he said he's he comes back. He says standards do need to be set for things to get adopted there does need to be a sense of quote You're doing it wrong Here's the right way to do it which I know seems contrary to your own technology perspective Dave And I appreciate what he said there and also in of course James is post as well because it gave me a chance to sort of go off and give all this a good think. And as part of thinking about it, I just started realizing podcastindex.social more closely mimics a real sort of life experience to me than something like Slack or Signal or something like that does. But why? Isn't it odd? It's the interface Dave

22:40 I think you're right. Why would Mastodon mimic a real life experience? And, like, I'm not saying that Mastodon adequately captures real life. I'm not saying it's a replacement for that in any way... that it's even close to being in the same room with another person. That's not, that's not the point of what I'm saying but i'm saying that the fact there is any difference at all between those two mediums something like a slack and podcasting that's social To me its bears significance that I need to... that I thought I needed to stop and think about And I think because this sort of semi-public federated nature of mastodon makes you feel

23:26 makes it feel more like you're having a personal discussion where you're going back and forth with the person in an open space, like in public. It feels like the same atmosphere that you get in a hallway of an office building where you have this one-on-one discussion but people are walking by and overhearing and then somebody may even overhear something you said and jump into conversation But then if you compare that to something like Signal or Slack, or even email or text messaging and those kinds of things that are completely private isolated environments. I think they distort this attention mechanism because there's no real world equivalent to something like that it really draws this left hemisphere

24:16 which is predominantly involved in focused attention to a single issue. Like, it gives the example in the book of birds and how they will use their right eye... so left and right are swapped so left hemisphere controls right side of the body. They'll use their right eye to monitor, to be focused on what they're eating Like off the ground and they'll be at the exact same time using their left eye to watch for prey. Hmm

24:55 And so there's this split between, and this left hemisphere is intensely focused on this one thing right in front of it. And it's not seeing the world as a big picture of the world. Yeah, it's micro-focused, hyperfocused. Hyperfocused! That distorted attention mechanism like we really do feel silo'd into a bubble Where there's where it ends up being there's nothing bigger than that one thing that exists It becomes that one issue becomes the whole world to us. Hmm, and of course if course it's gonna make us angry Okay so just interjecting That may be because when you scroll down the home page of the Mastodon You see something but there's other things this other

25:44 conversations, other context in the same space where a GitHub... It's like you're in a GitHub discussion. That's it! There is nothing else. You are isolated? Yeah I think you are exactly right Of course its gonna make us angry because it feels like our whole world depends on it because that is our current perception of the entire world Now I don't know what to do about it Oh, it's very simple I know exactly what to do about it. When you read something on GitHub, cover your right eye use only your left eye That's genius! I'm telling ya It may work Was it like pirates when they had the eye patch and they'd move it to the other side? Yeah This is great I'm gonna try myself There might be something to this It's like a chicken You have to flip your head around the other way

26:41 Just a thought. I don't know, maybe... It's funny that I think I sort of intuitively felt that this was something going on here in this fashion because I had asked Nathan couple of weeks ago or I mentioned something and we interacted about the GitHub discussions and how I like, was it a mistake to move away from issues to discussions? And. I think I was just feeling uncomfortable with the whole thing and that I'm not saying that we should ditch discussions or all of this. It's not necessary but i'm just...I think these are the types of things that open source projects do not discuss

27:25 And because they get intensely focused on the technology and that's all that matters. And in the background, these things are brewing and these it's these ancillary things that come into the picture with open source projects and create flame wars and hurt feelings and all these kinds of things because they never talk about the world outside of just the technology that they're dealing with. You know, I've thought about our merry band of misfits a lot just in general And I think that inadvertently The success of this project is just a project what we're doing here

28:10 is two things. It's the Mastodon in combination with the GitHub, I mean the GitHub is there for obviously for code and commits and PRS and... And really I can't handle the discussions because I get mad. I'm just reading like... What you talking about? I'm a podfather! Get away out of here! And the podcast, The Board Meeting where we just kind of hash this stuff out. And you can't, and it only works with the live chat those elements... Only yep yep yep Those elements make this somehow make this thing work makes I mean i don't know if I'm I mean you know you and I don't make any money off of this six years have been doing this We're doing it for reasons

29:00 But it would have been a lot harder if we didn't have the Mastodon and the podcast with the chat. And this weekly kind of get together, you know no set agenda more or less and just hash stuff out goof off sometimes Have a good laugh Have a good weekend See ya on the Mastodon You know? Yeah I think that's all open source projects should have some combination of this I think you're right. It just feels critical, you know? Yeah and this...I would go further and say that also

29:40 The Putney's Weekly Review is also a big part of it. Absolutely, absolutely! Yes James and Sam I do listen they're like Adam Curry otherwise you don't think that my robot will pick it up? Listen my robot is pretty sophisticated okay my robot knows what its doing and I do listen But if they somehow stopped doing that show, we would probably just have them come on the show a lot. Yeah! Oh yeah absolutely. And discuss things because I think it's just that... That's part of this is what blogging used to be. When Weiner had the right ideas about blogs with reposting you know

30:25 I forget all the different things that we had, but you could make a blog post about a blog post and then you could hit that tag. That blog posts it would show up on automatically on like a pink ping back or whatever it was that what it was called? I think that was called a ping back. Might be, yeah. These were all the right ideas and of course all these ideas got commercialized and hijacked the whole idea of the news feed. Facebook didn't have a news feed they didn't have a feed you know like an RSS feed anyway but... Yeah that's right So that's interesting because that was not at all what I was going to talk about

31:10 Oh, sorry. Go ahead. No! Don't be sorry. We love a sage cast there's nothing wrong with that Now I felt... Okay so.. I mistakenly felt you were grieving a little bit because we talked about it About being a software engineer and just where this is headed with coding agents etc And you felt a little bit bummed about it Because if I recall you said Love it and hate it immensely at the same time. Yes, that's right So you weren't grieving over that you were grieving over James he made you cry No Your description is accurate yes no The only thing the only little you're right The only little tweak though I would put into it is is That I felt

32:09 I still feel that way. I still hate AI intensely and it's not like...I don't get a lot of joy from code, I haven't in a long time It's the creation part that I like. The learning a new language, I've learned so many languages over the years that parts not really interesting to me anymore and the syntax and all these kinds of things those are just... To me it's just a little bit of drudgery So diving into AI coding is good from this standpoint because its like oh it takes a lot of dredgery out of it but then its same but also takes the creation out of it

32:50 And I feel like this happened too fast. We went from, I personally went from writing 100% of every piece of code that goes into podcast index and Godcaster and Freedom Controller and everything else I'm working on to... I write probably 10% of the code now by hand. It's all the coding agent and it happened Within like two months. This is a monumental shift Yeah, it's not something I was mentally or psychologically prepared for and I think that's where the grief is coming from because I don't really know how what It means what just happened so here's my analogy my analog to your story when I I Was done doing radio? I mean probably Me a little bit before the mid 90s

33:48 And as you know, my story is that I got into radio by building my first transmitter and then building a mixer and putting two mismatched turntables together. Coming up with ways to cue-up records which if ever told you it was kind of quite genius So we'd have these little small mixers that were really mixers for guys doing, you know clubs and maybe had two turntables You know to one for a cassette deck And maybe a mic channel. I'm so weed We put micro switches into the faders so we'd open it up and

34:29 So when the fader is down, then you know the channel is closed and nothing's playing. So what you want is when you open the fader and you slam it all the way up... so that the channel is open at full volume At the same time you want the record to start We would hook a micro switch up to a relay Big relays, big ones with magnets in there we'd break off the plastic cap And then we'd get our turntable, you put an old record you don't want anymore on the turntable. Then we had an oversized slip mat. Remember slip mats? Yeah! So you get an oversized slipmat so the edge of it was running through the relay and when the relay was activated click it grabs the slipmat and then the record on top of the slipmat wouldn't move

35:21 Until you open the fader, the micro switch clicks off. Boom! The relay is deactivated opens up the record start with only like a quarter turn it would be up to speed and it would start playing so we could cue it up which later people may remember that sound This is beautifully analog. I love this. Precisely, cassette decks so we would use those for jingles and so you'd have maybe 10 jingles on a cassette and so in pre-fader listening mode you listen you have your hand on the pause button like okay here it comes it starts click you click it

36:05 You click pause, then you click eject. You put a pencil in and you would rewind the cassette about half a turn, put it back in... put on pause and then when it was time to play that jingle, just hit the pause button. It would be queued up and ready to go." This is where I started. This is where I started. No, in a... Nam said the fact you did all this and still lost your virginity is quite frankly amazing! Well funny enough when chicks find out you're that guy on the radio man they want to be in the studio so... John Holden baby! Yeah, John Holden. That's right John Holden exactly So then later we got carts, which was originated from an eight track system. The only difference with it we would literally buy old eight tracks up and drill a hole probably like I'm going to say like a two inch hole on the bottom of it so the cart machine you'd stick in front loader and then this roller wheel would come up but not quite hit the tape to the heads

37:07 But when you hit the play button, the roller would snap against the head and start playing. And it would start shuttling the tape around and these things were just on a loop... ...and it would stop with the tone that you put on the tape! I mean literally if you wanted to reuse your cart, you had to put in on a big magnet and degauss it. Well, just wipe it. Wipe it? Yeah exactly! So that's where I came from and you know there was no lights telling you the record was over You know you had to kind of time it or listen if you went to the can or whatever Mixing it was an art like okay here It's just at the end of song boom I'm gonna hit throw up the next...it was physical too it was real physical Boom! And that's why we'd stand

37:57 You know, I want to have energy so i'm standing and i'm doing all this physical stuff on them. And then...I only know the intros and outros of songs. I don't know any of the lyrics in the middle because in the middle of the song we're not listening to the song We're getting our next record this is oh and we're choosing a record take it out of the sleeve put it on Boop, boop. Cue it up okay good boom I'm back okay? I got 30 seconds left Boom! I mean to the next record so this was a thing you know you're in the vibe and all kinds of stuff could happen that could jar you out of it but when you're in the groove was just fantastic and so The next time I looked at radio It was all digital

38:39 And that meant there were no records. It was all on hard drive and you had waveforms! And you literally would like queue up, a mix... You didn't do a mix live anymore just put this waveform here that wave form there okay let me listen to it's good I'm done and it would do it all automatically and I hated it! This sucks! This is not the art that I used to be apart of Now, it took me many years actually before I was doing digital production radio again and I got into it. And I'm like okay now I can focus on other things and I can get... It's different but I'm still able to get joy out of it

39:28 But when I do like, I used to use daily source code. You know, FUBAR Friday it would be digital but I wouldn't do it on a digital machine that all the kids are using. I would just have players...I still use players lined up and I hit them manually. I don't like the whole mixing-it together bit so I've kind of created my own IDE if you will for radio with music Now the other analogy is flying I learned to fly a Cessna 182RG retractable gear, high speed prop. The whole—it's fast plane

40:06 with what we call a six-pack. So I had six dials, you know altimeter attitude speed critically your airspeed you know your roll and bank and so if you're doing an approach to an airport on the ILS instrument landing system You would literally fly Based upon a chart that you had on your lap, okay? Called the approach plate. Because you have to fly this teardrop to then come down before he can pick up the instrument landing system and you'd make that turn You have to do a standard rate turn and you'd have to time it

40:47 with it literally with a stopwatch which was in the on the panel because then you would know at a certain speed so then you would know that you had completed that teardrop circle and you knew it because then you would see the needle start to come together. Because the instrument landing system has two needles that cross like across one is okay, you're on the right direction and the other one as you're on the glide path you're on the at the right altitude And so as you as the needle Moves you want to move the aircraft do you want to point the nose down so that you're on that glide path and then at 300 feet if You don't break out of the clouds. You're gonna go back up again and go around but typically 300 feet you break out The clouds there's a runway your landing within 20 seconds Okay, so I converted to a modern aircraft a few years ago The Cirrus it's all glass and it would freak me out unlike

41:42 It only has one backup airspeed indicator. I'm like, it's like a video game! I can't do this and I was struggling and then for that turn for the ILS, so my instructor said okay let me just follow the thing on the screen he said wait a minute this is how the kids are doing you can do this on a test? Oh yeah, oh yeah. You just follow the screen like a video game and I was like well this is no good! This is not flying this sucks now that I've converted to that And imminent death is always kind of there when you're flying. I'm like, this is actually better because it's actually pretty good but I know that in a pinch... Yeah. ...I could figure stuff out and I would—I could rely on my senses and you know there's—it does have an attitude indicator so I wouldn't be flying upside down in the clouds if everything blanked out but just saying– Right. My point being hang in there

42:45 You will find your groove and your vibe in a new way that I think will maybe even bring you more creative juices than you ever expected. And I heard Jeff Bezos actually played this on No Agenda, it was a crazy... Silicon Valley term that he used? No, Lord. Yeah but in hindsight because I laughed at it yesterday But listen to this... I know there's a lot of concern that many people have including many smart people That AI is going to make humans redundant and so on I totally disagree with this point of view And i think in fact AI is gonna create a labor shortage

43:28 because it's going to make it possible for people to identify more problems. We have an endless set of things to invent and we are only limited today, not by our imaginations but what we can actually do I promise you every single person in this audience has had an idea for a new business or a new product or a new device that they wish they could manufacture And the idea stayed in your head And went nowhere and the reason it stayed in your head and went nowhere is because it's too hard to do And it wasn't worth it, and if we can accelerate the dream build loop all of the ideas will then become possible? And then we end up being limited not by our capabilities but by our imaginations so the dream build loop laughable laughs gross however However this happens to me continuously

44:24 I have dream build loops all the time. And last night, it had an idea for Godcaster It's kind of irrelevant what it is but it almost came to me in a dream and today I'm almost done building it now we have a different relationship to code than you do but I think as hokey as it sounds there's something to what he saying about that and To me that's like Kinda back to the digital radio I can do more and be creative in other ways that I couldn't back in the analog days. To me, the difficulty here is that the dream build loop is not a loop it's a straight path

45:26 And the path may go uphill, it may go around a bunch of rocks. It may go through deep water and if you... depending on how difficult that path is, it may help you determine whether or not it's worth it to keep continuing going or set aside and do something different. I agree. I think the loop is lame. The dream build path may be better. That's to me, that's the dark pattern of AI is that it reduces the build friction down so low that you do start building everything and the world wasn't meant for everything to be built

46:10 It was only meant for things to be built that contribute something to either the people in it or the world around those people in a positive way. And I think because this is the issue of, this is the issue we talked about before with like AI generated podcasts and And I've got a lot of thoughts on that right now going, is with this fast cast thing that came out. The AI generated pike when the friction to build is reduced to almost zero what you do is flood the world Right but isn't really flooding the world? It's just flooding up space

46:56 technically cheap. It's not like, look I don't know a lot of people there are very few people who said I started listening to no agenda because i was searching in a podcast app for news with no agenda and your show popped up maybe one hand I can count those people it all comes from somewhere else it didn't come from searching in a podcast app now It's different from YouTube, where YouTube who are having a really hard time now trying to suppress the slop because they have to identify it and that comes into some of the podcast stuff we got talk about.

47:32 It's, you know they have algos that are presenting stuff to people and now you're fighting a lot more content that is out there than you were before. But when it comes to podcasting? Good luck! I've always said this is ephemeral. I don't think this is going to carry on very long because its just ultimately not going to work People won't find it Those who do think will be limited who enjoy whatever the content is, you know. There's an audience for it I listened to one or two text-to-speech automated things It's alright but it's not the same as something I'm going to become a part of a community and enjoy listening too we'll talk to other people about Yeah, I think... You're talking about in the context of projects and dream build loop that kind of thing And that I think that's That's the issue

48:30 For instance, let's say I think search is the only way. It's the reason Google are what they are. Search is the only way the internet even pretends to function. You can't have an internet without some functional level of search involved and for instance Nvidia the DGX Spark. So, the DGX Spark has that community is building a lot of tools so they've got a lot of stuff and of course they're all vibe coding and there's literally dozens of different versions of top, the processor monitoring software that you use a lot in Linux and Unix

49:32 They've built all these different clones of top that are specific to the DJX Spark to monitor the unified memory segments and the different, uh, in the black world GPUs and memory and all these kinds of things. So they're all very specific to this DGX spark will if you go to look which one are you going to use? Like there's dozens. Yeah I I have no idea. The MSI, of course some of them may even be malicious and have supply chain hijacking modules in them you just don't know this is the problem but in the previous time like I go back to the... You talked about the old days of DJing and radio and that kind of thing

50:19 the manual nature of all those things contributed something to the overall quality of the output. It took a DJ in Cleveland, to really put Rush on the map because she was just determined she loved this band and she was going to play their stuff on air and it was like that...it was such a strong signal of quality at that time and that's what code used to be. It used to be a strong quality indicator, and now there are no indicators whatsoever it is just noise. Bemrose makes a good point. No Agenda Art Generator is an excellent example where... Excuse me. Choke out the thing you want to use. Oops! This is going crazy! I didn't mean to do that

51:19 So we'd have people listening to the show, artists with Photoshop mainly but some would draw stuff by hand and scan it. They make album art for each show and it'll be ready for us by the time were done So once the AI generators came along, people started flooding it with AI art images. And at this point not I don't think a single... No that's not true! Almost every single artist left as in they don't make art anymore They may not even listen to the show. I mean they got so disappointed there used to be a real race you know is like wow you know I created this and I did it within 30 minutes and was there ready for them and ah they didn't pick my art but people would still have

51:57 Appreciation for what you did we always discuss the art afterwards are we like what you did but we didn't pick it for this reason. Review of the artist work which they don't get an honest review usually in commercial settings and we gave my honest review so then the AI generators came along and became It was really, really bad in the beginning. The whole page would be filled with orange looking images then their cartoon models came out and everything looked like a cartoon and it sucked balls! And then slowly we're seeing two things happen One some of the artists who were OG artists like Blue Acorn and Nessworks they started figuring out how to use this tool

52:41 and are winning picks. And then there's a guy who could not do art at all, Darren O'Neill he is almost the top guy because he understands the humor He understands how to translate a humorous idea into his generation model and what comes out is often hilarious The people who were just slapping away slopping away trying you know uploading stuff Eventually they quit because they never get chosen. So it was a real bummer for awhile and now it's kind of coming into a new place, and from time to time you'll have someone just upload something completely hand drawn, completely handmade that stands out so beautifully like boom! You're a winner Not all of them but some of them Same goes for end-of-show mixes Finally people are starting to write lyrics to go with their songs And they're figuring out how to make Sue note

53:38 do something so it sounds different from every other single AI slop song out there. So, there's a curve and I've seen this in accelerated time and I expect it to be with everything. I expect the same curve to take place with all arts and sciences, I guess. Yeah... There is… I have been through many of these cycles you know, and we both have. I mean, my first computer was a Commodore 64 in the 80s when i was young and if you've been in the technology world that long... Peek-and-poke baby! Yeah peek-and-poke. When you've been in it that long

54:24 loading programs from memory, from a cassette tape. You know? And then you're literally trying to get your add on card to work by changing jumpers on the board and putting drivers into your system dot I and I file and all these things. And now, and then you get to a point in your career where it's everything is that you no longer have servers on premises. Everything's in the cloud and your everything's right? Like there's been so many of these changes that I'm, you get used to just moving along with the flow of the way that things...I don't like using the word progress. I just don't like that term

55:13 It's just things go in a different direction. All right, let's move into some podcasting stuff because we've once again and we've talked about ourselves for an hour What else is there? Let me cover my left eye here for a second. Okay do it little better okay so let's just circle back quickly to the VTT So we have resolution now I think I understand what he's saying. You can do whatever you want, but you support it if you support VTT. Right? That means you adhere to the spec. Yeah! I'm down with that. I don't know why it took so long for me to understand this...I guess its just a miscommunication But I think thats fine and we could do that with most of these tags that have multiple formats

56:09 I'm going to move us along. Podping.alpha stable, stable five nines. So this on...I've got so many irons in the fire on the podcast index side. Nathan Gathright just picked me up by the scruff of the neck and threw me down a rabbit hole like he and he had no idea that he was doing it. He innocently posted about the iTunes tag, excuse me. The you can add the pie. You can add feeds to the podcast index in many ways and one of them is through the ad by iTunes ID end point in the API and so if you have an iTunes ID that doesn't appear to be in the index, you can add a feed to the index by referencing its iTunes ID using that endpoint. Wait say that again?

57:17 So if, if you know one of the functions of the index is as a fallback to where you can do iTunes. You can look up and so if you don't have like like if you pull the index and we don't have a feed either by URL or by iTunes ID, you can add it to the index by just referencing its iTunes ID and will do the backup. No excuse me. We'll do the lookup And yeah, here's thank you Nathan the link master that you are. Let me quote him correctly when podlink looks up a show by its iTunes ID and the index returns no results but the feed is already in the index Is there anything you'd like me to do with that information? Sound pretty straightforward Yeah This led me to a gigantic rabbit hole because I found out that that...I thought that the index

58:20 I thought that's already what was happening. That's the way I wanted it to work, but the more I looked at that end point it was a mess! I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that thing... It makes no sense whatever is trying to do it is not that and I can't make it make any sense so I was like okay I'm gonna have to rewrite this well that turned into a long process because then all of your directory sync things become, you have to think it all through. And what if so somebody has an iTunes ID they reference that in the add by iTunes ID end point? So there as the index says oh okay you've given me an iTunes ID and I need to go find the feed URL and add this to the index

59:25 Well, it can... What if it already has the ID? Right. Okay internally the way we do is we have two directories The podcast index has an Apple directory internally to it and it has its regular directory Now we don't scrape Apple for their stuff but we just keep a segregated and then we just do a table relationship between the feeds table in the podcast index and the apple table So we just go insert it into the Apple directory and then we just link it. So what if we already have that iTunes ID? Are we going to look up Apple every time? No, probably shouldn't. Well but what if the URL changed? What if they have a different one than... What if Apple has a different one than we have the last one we checked? Oh! Then you'll just give them the no agenda feed

1:00:26 Every time. For every fee! I want the Simon, the gardener or whatever from Fesk. There you go that's a good idea yeah. Simon Cumberbund or whatever his name was. From Inception Point AI Yeah and you get no agenda so then you just have to think all this through like okay do we... So we do have to check every time okay what if you check and you get back a different result than what we have in our Apple table. Do we then have to double check the feed URL that we have and that Apple has, to make sure that Apple seems correct? Because they can have old stuff in there too

1:01:23 We know from our, we know from long experience that sometimes people don't update their Apple, their URL in Apple's podcast connect correctly. And so if we just blindly change it without checking to make sure it's right at this I've just been going around and round with the logic of this thing tying myself and mental knots but I'm at the point now where I'm just gonna have to ship something I don't because the questions really have broader ramifications about refactoring a lot of what we're doing. And, I'm not ready to go there right now so i'm just going to have to ship something that broadly meets what this endpoint is supposed to do and just deal with the consequences

1:02:19 And once that happens, the next on the list is Podping.alpha Yes You brought up Podping.alpha and that was my long-winded way of saying He's doing the weave That's next Because I think it's stable and I think its time to split it out into Right now its this monolithic thing so we need to split it out into a Podping, excuse me a gossip writer repo and a gossip listener repo and a gossip monitor repo. And the monitor that term is a little bit of a misnomer because it's doing... It is monitoring but it's also doing management of swarm so it's... That Eero uses Hyperview

1:03:22 and is prone to having drift. We've talked about this before, nodes can drift off to where they're quote poorly connected. They can kind of isolate themselves off where they don't have a good... They only have one path to the swarm. Like incels? Eero Incel It's like an NSFW Reddit Yeah And so A dangling bastard. So the monitor, the budbing monitor watches for those things and then gently reaches out and pulls them back into the family

1:04:09 How sweet. Yeah, it just gives a little gentle nudge to... Come on back baby! Come on back to the fam! Why so cold sugar? And it does that by sending some messages saying here is a set of nodes that you should try to connect to right now and that instantly gets it back up and running where its well connected So that once that happens, uh once we get those repos split out then um we can bake them directly into the podpain.cloud servers so that they are writing to Hive and to Gossip at the same time. So that's-that's the plan. I like it!

1:05:06 Thanks I'm just waiting until you tell me it's safe for me to launch a lino with running one of these things Just little $5 in a month. Yeah, totally run it now just let it run I'm just right now like I gotta go upgrade and do all this stuff feels like a lot I just want when its When it's uh when you got an RC Really? Yeah, yeah. RC2 wait for RC2. RC1's brittle gold master. Yeah, that's what I want. Nathan said he is running a gossip listener as well Yes anybody who and Eric and Archie is running a bunch so Anybody who wants to run one feel free the more the better The more people that run a gossip listener The better this swarm will operate

1:05:58 the more there are, the more stable the whole pierce worm becomes. I think the whole idea is fantastic now can i poison stuff by if i run my gossiper and it just starts spouting off stuff that's incorrect and lies? No because there are trusted nodes and the trusted nodes list will initially just only contain the five Podping.cloud gossip writers in the future, there will be... The code's already in there but the gossip writers if somebody else wants to run a writer to push podpings out to the swarm you can but initially you will not be trusted so your nodes and the swarm will ignore your stuff

1:06:58 But there is a way to, there's a voting mechanism that happens like a plebiscite where- Plebiscite? Ooh. Yeah. Where the... So it's like, yeah it's a podcast plebiscite where you have all these nodes. Like if I trust your node and you mark a node as trusted, it propagates So like the five, the five or the podpain.cloud initial writers if I if somebody else fires one up and we trust that person let's say that it's a that is you or Nathan or Eric PP or Archie or somebody we can uh or busbrowder apple or anybody else we can um

1:07:56 Mark them as trusted on the pod ping cloud host and that will propagate in everyone else will inherit that trust We can vote nodes off the island So yeah, it that's that's the initial idea and that that's already in there and that could work like it Well, that's what it's going to be. So I hope it works and it seems to be we're depending on it. We've got a...I've already got some stuff this that's depending on that signal so... I love this man! I love that we talked about a whole bunch of stuff and didn't once talk about 30 seconds is a play! Yeah me too Me too. I gave everybody my idea

1:08:56 And no one jumped on it, so it's good. It was fine. What was I hearing? But I wrote this down that... what was it? That was on... Pod News Weekly Review. The indie middle class, two words I hate... Indie! I hate the indie- Why do you hate? Why does that bother you so much? Because You're a podcaster There's no such thing as indie That is being a podcaster You are by definition independent if your'e a podcaster So now there's these This is delineate It's like open RSS I despise that too It's RSS not OpenRSS it's RSS

1:09:39 Because when you say indie podcaster, it means that the other ones who are not indeed those are the podcasters. Yeah something like that Okay, yeah I'm down with that. Well was an interesting conversation I heard Yeah, so Indy the Indy middle class like once you want to say in the middle class with one leg Okay, let's just say that I feel better did this conversation happen in the super secret. What's up group? No This is on the the the pop-up where was this power a pod news power? which is 5,000 to 25,000 downloads a month. That's only 1% to one and half percent of all podcasters so there you are when you were a podcaster now your an indie podcast now your at one percent And they can't survive on CPMs What I liked about what the outcome of this is that Oh this was that woman Lush? Yeah yeah Instead of selling an audience number

1:10:45 I mean, like this we have. I don't know. I should probably look that up how many people do you think listen to this? This board meeting? I should look that up having looked at OP3 and yeah, I'm going to look let's see just had just take a guess know what the OP three link is. Yeah take a guess it is over what time frame like what are we talking about monthly just monthly I guess like over 30 days or something as 2500 This is interesting. Why can't I find this here? Oh, here we go. We're on the second page. What the heck is that? Okay let's see 2500 you said 2141 no not seven days 6658 so according to that was that's May

1:11:36 Okay, so over 30 days we had 6700 roughly? Yeah. So according to OP3 our unique audience in May was 5247 So we're right in that indie range. Oh, cool! Nice for indie But look at the value that we create Look at the value that is running around In this ecosystem of people... We're firmly middle class With one leg Of people supporting The project Keeping it running The joy we get for it I mean this a hugely successful Project and podcast In my mind You know? We are not Rogan but we don't have to be

1:12:17 And so the value that it creates for the people involved and for you and I personally is fantastic. This is a success story, so... Well if I remember correctly that lady was all about brokering deals with advertisers. So they only care about numbers. They only care about numbers. Right but I have a different takeaway my takeaway is this what V4V is It's not just about money And I think that's hugely underplayed in all podcast reporting. It's all about money and seconds and plays and CPMs, who cares? Podcasting! Don't call me an indie. I'm a podcaster. See this is the problem we already have a controversy because Daniel J Lewis says

1:13:11 Don't confuse the number of downloads of multiple episodes with the number of people podcasting 2.0 looks to have about 1,800 regular listeners whatever see there's already it's like the OP 3 says you have 6600 50 unique 52 5200 unique listeners and Daniels like no you only have 1800 there's already controversy I don't care either way I don't care that this a like On the, just because it's a thing that we're talking about numbers. The how long of play is thing is meaningless because everything caches not just web browsers. Web browsers aren't the only ones that cache audio and video all decent apps cache audio and video every single one of them you find out very quickly when you write a podcast app

1:14:06 that you can't not do it. You have to cache a few minutes. Yeah, exactly. At least a minute and half to two or three minutes because when people go in and out of bad network connectivity, you have to be able to buffer through that. And because... That's why we decided early on that Godcaster was going to send a play button click once per user per hour. Yep. And a user is defined according to what Benjamin, Dan Benjamin and I came up with a few years ago the UL ID. The unique listener ID is so we send it, we generate a UL ID and send it with everyone and we deduplicate based on that this is the problem with having only first party data collectors like YouTube and Spotify inside this

1:15:01 inside this group driving these technical definitions. Yeah, exactly. They can see the difference between a 30 millisecond play and a 30 second play but no other podcast apps can And that's the problem. They don't have anybody from the world of podcast app developers in this little group, and so it was all BS." Why would they? And they're dead to me! I was a pirate radio broadcaster for half my life even when I was a radio broadcaster

1:15:36 They had no way to really know how many people were listening. It's statistics based upon people writing down in a diary, oh yeah I listened to that station... Oh yeah sure it has gotten a little more sophisticated but that never mattered! I mean it mattered just station managers later what share do we have? Well we went up 1 of 10th point Champagne!! You know okay.. I never cared. It was the person who came up to me in the mall and said hey man I heard your show that was great It's still that way. Yeah, it's still that way you know now uh With Godcaster is kind of interesting because all those stations they live off of donations and yeah okay Yeah it's...you can do some-it's interesting for programming the station You know what podcasts that are streamed out with people listen to what placement in the player? You know but it doesn't excite me

1:16:35 What excites me is someone clicked on a give button to show that they were interested in supporting the station or the programming. And that's all that counts with no agenda, it's the same thing I don't care how many people listen. I really don't. People say, I'm quitting the show! Okay whatever... I like when people announce that. I couldn't listen anymore, I unsubscribed My nephew the other day sent me this video and it's the Mr. Beast people talking about how they in real time watch their metrics Oh yeah to fine-tune what they're doing, absolutely To fine tune their thumbnail They can change the thumbnail on a video

1:17:25 a hundred times or more over the lifetime of that video, just tweaking the thumbnail and watching what to modify the curve of the feedback that they get. Or the plays? That is miserable! Who wants that noise?! We don't want that in podcasting...that's horrible Does anybody want that? That's what metric-based, number based... all this stuff works. You know that's the way all this works and we don't nobody wants that no No. Here's how it works with no agenda, hey man donations are down let's complain about it yeah good idea and then lets send out a newsletter with a sad puppy and people go oh yeah that's right sad puppy I gotta support those guys and they do it! Sometimes on this show we don't even read donations Let's do it right now before... lest we forget Well we have some couple of boosts that have been coming in lets see

1:18:25 Ah, there's Martin Lindeskog. Wow! Thank you. 11,235 sats coming in from the true fans. Happy Midsummer Adam have you had matchish...matchishering? What is that? Virgin herring That's Norwegian, that's not Dutch. I think it's Norwegian here is a Fibonacci sequence okay you just whipsawed me 011235 Boostergram! Oh okay with 11235 oh it's a Fibonacci booster okay gotcha thank you Virgin herring? Do they taste different once they've been around the block? Well I think there's something in Holland we have

1:19:10 The whole ancho nua, which means it's the first herring of the season. And it is really good and we eat that... Basically they cure it in salt so for all intents and purposes its raw but it has been heated up a bit with salt you eat it with onions and hold by the tail I don't like anything 79 22 from salty crayon howdy Dave and Adam was going back to episode 68 275 who does that?

1:19:51 A lot of good server juice for new people just from 2022 time frame about podcasting 2.0 and V4V highly recommended, people go back to these early discussions. All right there you go that's your recommendation. There is Dreb Scott with 10,000 Sats Go Podcasting Here's another one that came in from, this is Lyceum again. Oh okay 1701 doing a test boost before the live stream fascinating how open the podcasting industry is including the friendly competition I've now been podcasting for 20 years on my first podcast Ego Netcast starting on Prodo's solid Vox philosophical podcast network

1:20:31 Then blog talk radio, and after that Lipson for many years. And then moving to Captivate and now for a short period Fountain the next home from my podcast will be Beamly formerly known as PodcastPage.io Spaceship 1701 Satoshi's Okay Beam... Beamly I just gave them a PodPing token, so they should be starting PodPings soon. Nice! Yeah Let's see... And then we have Fountain user 94018734888328 God change your username with 2693 sats from fountain thank you very much and then a couple of these will probably show up on your list Eric BP

1:21:21 with a couple of test boosts, which is appreciated. All right successful all right we got some uh got some paypals we got lauren ball 24 20 cents very nice thank you appreciate you thank you uh mitchell downey It's probably what his mom calls him. $10, thank you. When she is mad at him? Mitchell Downey! Mitchell Robert Downey or whatever I don't know... Whatever his middle name is Yeah well I can't think of a good middle name for Mitch. Robert that sounds like he's probably it okay Christopher Harabaric $10 Thank You Christopher Let's see we got another one here he said Damon Kasejak $15 thank you

1:22:05 Terry Keller, five bucks. Christopher Cowan, five bucks. Silicon Florist $10 thank you appreciate that very appreciated all these small numbers add up that's a one server right there and one crawler absolutely we got Derek J Viscar the best name in podcasting twenty-one dollars Paul Saltzman 22 dollars and 22 cents like a rock every single month Thank you. Jeremy Gerdt, $5. Michael Hall, $5 and 50 cents. Gene Liverman, $5 thank you Gene and also Gene thank you for running your monitor he runs him and Archie both run uptime monitors for the index. Oh very helpful very helpful Todd Cochran may he rest in peace thirty dollars. Thank You Todd. Boosting from heaven everybody!

1:23:06 If he can boost all the way from heaven, what's your excuse? Everybody can switch. Thank you! What's your excuse exactly? Timothy Voice $10. Oh look at this Buzzsprout $1,000. Baller shot caller 20 inch blades on an Impala Keeping it alive thank you so much boys and girls from buzzsprout really appreciate that support is just Phenomenal. We got a comic strip blogger, 24k? Yes we missed him last week and he was like what happened?! I told you he would be the most mad! He was like the string cut off

1:23:55 That was the end of the show, bro. We just ended sorry I'm gonna be on his a arch wizard podcast Sunday night Nice yeah, I'm glad you're doing it. I really want to do it. I just it's been low crazy I'm gonna set it up again. I kind of do what I got to do what? I gotta put in on my list Let's see, we got ComsterBugger24000 says through Fountain. He says howdy Dave and Adam please subscribe to YouTube channel wait YouTube? It's not podcasting no I'm calling a yellow card on that Howdy Dave and Adam please subscribe to YouTube channel youtube.com slash

1:24:37 at symbol Roger Nash, where my pal from Wales Roger Nash who is Alki is reviewing. Is reviewing and talking about beer and stuff recently he added AI generated timestamps so topic jumping easier yo CSB AI arch wizard. Alright CSB thank you. Topic jumping through an alky podcast sounds exciting That's it. That's our guys. That's it! All right, well look at that with one minute and 30 seconds to spare No, but we got plenty of time for another topic. No I think we're good. I think we've covered a lot What are you doing this weekend brother? You know you're gonna be hanging out My wife is in Canada Party time at Dave's house! Come on over It's uh no she's in Prince Edward Island for a conference Oh excellent so you gotta cook your... Are you gonna actually cook or are you getting pizza

1:25:38 Pizza is the most likely outcome of those choices. We have one Chinese restaurant in Fredericksburg called Panda, it's not Panda Express but it's called... I love going there! Is good or is it like cheap? Oh, so good! It's phenomenal! Yeah and they're all OG Chinese who've lived in Fredericksburg for 25 years The restaurants been here for 20 years Oh wow. Yeah So is it like a full on Szechuan style? Everything's there. Oh yeah, the whole interior everything It's crazy

1:26:18 And Tina doesn't like Chinese food. You're making me want sushi! Well that's Japanese, I'm sorry you know this is a little bit... Oh yeah? Please don't get your people confused It's Asian come on Why do they even have drivers licenses that say brown hair brown eyes and brown hair come on let's be honest about it I am very racist All right, brother. Well you have yourself a good one get yourself a pizza boardroom Thank you very much for being here as always thank you for being a part of this wonderful project And we look forward to doing it all again on Friday next week where we tell you everything that's going on in podcasting and whatever else is on our mind

1:27:08 You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 visit podcast index org for more information I'm unwrapping my nuts